This is really interesting. I’m a younger Millenial and I met my husband on Tinder. He was the first (and only) guy from the app I went on a date with. He had previously been on dozens of dates that went nowhere. I agreed to the date because we messaged for a couple of weeks and he never got sleazy or asked for photos and was generally respectful and seemed genuinely interested in getting to know me. Our first date was good but not insane fireworks, I decided to keep seeing him because I felt like we had a lot of shared values and common interests. He had a job and owned a house (at 27!). I asked him how he felt about being a father one day on the second date, possibly a bit too forward but I told him I didn’t want to waste my time or his. There was a point a couple of months in where I started to freak out a bit about the level of commitment, and could easily have blown up the relationship. Thankfully my friends parents, who were sort of surrogate parents to me at the time, gave me some excellent advice and I didn’t dump him in a panic.
Even at the time, which was about 6 years ago, I knew I was lucky to meet someone so quickly. I had been single for years, but none of my friends could believe I had found this great guy on my first attempt at online dating. Sounds like it’s gotten even worse, I really feel for young people today. I set up my brother and my cousin with two of my close friends, both are still happily married with children. My husband already jokes that we are gonna have to match make for our girls when they grow up.
I think tinder was actually useful for partner finding, some years ago.
I’ve heard a few stories of women joining a dating app and partnering with the first man they went on a date. I think it speaks to the quality of the woman.
By the way I’ve also been Catholic curious this year.
great perspective & inline with what many of me and my friends have experienced. I think my subjective counter to the online dating is that there are tons of communities popping up where alcohol is not involved from running clubs, story telling events, salsa/bachata, pickle ball, yoga, hiking, etc. That's how I met my current partner. But in general the trend is continuing to go in the wrong direction: more men & women are finding dates via online and generally not very happy with the results.
The clubs, sports, church strategy, haven’t panned out for me in New Hampshire, where there are few young people. I’m curious to see what it’s like in Boston. I think something like run club or dancing does a good job vetting for the type of people you would be interested in. And then it’s sort of a warm approach situation. I still think it’s ideal for a third party, maybe a mutual friend, to be involved to facilitate the matchmaking and the early days of the relationship.
And I agree, the cultural default is “try the apps” 😂
Would you want to share what club or community you met your partner and how it progressed?
salsa/bachata. boston is definitely big enough to have some decent latin dance! lots of fun & good way to meet others in a light setting as long as you're committed to improving. the first few months can be frustrating, but the benefits after that are immense. & as an introvert it's nice because I don't have to talk at all. the connection I can get from 1 dance if done well with someone feels like a lot more than a typical date. which is what I think most people are looking for at the end of the day, just human connection.
now in a long term stable relationship, it's a fun way for me and my gf to have a good time with people of the opposite sex without it being weird or involving jealousy.
but other friends have met partners through hiking, climbing gyms, etc. so tons of options imo.
Interesting. I'm long married but I run a group for American expats here in Stockholm and we were talking about dating here last week. Many complaints! Everyone here is incredibly good looking and very marriage minded. But they are also (so I hear) incredibly boring. They discuss only facts, not opinions and never ideas. Hard one to fix. Not sure this is relevant but I thought I'd chime in.
Wow, interesting. It’s similar to what Yanina commented. People are looking for “fun” from marriage, not just economics and reproduction, which maybe was more important some time ago
Great piece man! From my POV this is the most critical piece of the puzzle that has gone missing: "The ideal IRL social network is so dense that you can’t see through it. What appears to be more common today is a sparse network of lone individuals, isolated couples, gender silos, and few IRL local connections." The visual is great. I think the major "problem" is that friendships/social groups happen across cities now -- which is awesome, I have tons of close friends in other cities / countries -- yet the thing I/we all long for is intimate in-person groups that meet regularly. That's also what interests me so much in communal living arrangements. Great way to meet potential partners and "vet" them through the community/network of people.
Never heard of those. I have never lived in a formal intentional community but have friends who have and it sounds like a much more natural way of life. Curious to check it out different ones abroad during my travels
Thank you for writing this. I saw somewhere here on Substack the prediction that in the next 3-5 years there will be a mass exodus from the Internet and social media and people will start to prefer IRL connection again. I think it's very naive but I'd love it if it was true. Even more so with dating apps!
Just as you're moving to Boston I too had to move to another state to make it happen in my 20s. I'm 40 and the dating landscape has changed in innumerable ways since I got married at 25. But one thing that hasn't changed since then and maybe is the through line to previous generations is if you want to date and marry, you have to constrain your life choices. Men and women... It takes what it takes. In previous generations, the constraints happened from community, church, etc. Now it feels harder because the constraint on choice has to be self-imposed. And no one likes that at all.
Loved the raw honest writing here, this was a fun read.
I would counter what you said about cold approach being the path of most resistance. It's actually quick and easy when you think about it. You see someone you find attractive, and then you go talk to them. You're able to find out instantly whether or not they are interested in pursuing a conversation with you, there's no back and forth messaging for weeks on end trying to plan a first date. Since moving to Barcelona I've quite a few romantic partners just by being out on a walk or a bike ride, it feels so much more organic.
Of course, the cold approach model works well in places that have a high density of people with an abundance of public places to hangout which is not the case in much of the United States. I agree with the point Andriy made about different communities popping up everywhere, it's nice to see that's happening in much of the country.
You're the man Chris, wishing you all the best in your search of a life partner!
I'd have to agree with Chris. Even when it comes to making friends at the coworking space I've been visiting lately - people apparently need some reason to make eye contact and say hi first. Not an issue in Europe or Asia, so far. I really do think it's an atrophy of social skills. Once you say hi though, people are really friendly, but there is that annoying cold hump to get over in America
Nice breakdown Chris - it’s messy out there. Keeper.ai seems cool. Heard about them maybe 6 months ago. Got like 75% threw their insanely long intake form and my chrome crashed. It didn’t save and I gave up… curious to hear part 2.
Wow…thank you for this post! Super candid and bloody REAL about the situation many men are facing in the USA. I cannot wait for part 2👏 I wonder if you have a take on the religion angle. I’m Catholic and can barely get Catholic women to accept a coffee/gelato/walkabout invitation.
It’s funny there was a piece in there about this but I deleted it. I have a bunch of Catholic friends. I told one of them, Abby, I was writing about dating. She said she knows a Catholic girl she could introduce me to who might be a good match, but she implied I’d need to convert to Catholicism.
Despite not being an ordained Catholic, I’m in a pretty solid group of young adult Catholics, 26-31ish who hang out every week. Idk how common that is.
We are 3 couples, 5 single males and 1 single female (she’s not particularly attractive). It’s somewhat of a gender silo. Abby is in a Facebook group of with Catholics in New England and America and plays matchmaker. One it time it actually worked.
Yes, Catholics are obliged to raise their children as Catholics but many non-practicing Catholics ignore this obligation and date/marry whoever they want.
Practicing Catholics focus on marrying other Catholics or requesting that a non-Catholic courtship/dating partner convert to the faith.
Pretty good post that goes over the current and possible future of dating. I think if you date intentionally, you're doing it wrong. There has to be magic in the process. It's a stupid requirement, but it has to be there. All the rationalists want to remove this stupid requirement, and they're all wrong IMO.
There is a way to solve the fertility crisis. But nobody will like it. Love is war, man.
(For what it’s worth, I met my husband online in 2011 so that’s how long I’ve been out of the game.) I don’t understand how I can be hearing from both men and women that there’s just no one decent out there to date.
Is it a survey structure problem? If we’re only listening to single people, then wouldn’t they all say “Yeah, I haven’t had any luck”?
Wouldn’t we also need to listen to people in committed dating relationships and the recently married to get more of an accurate view of the current dating-to-marriage pipeline?
I don’t actually know what percent of people or young people are married. In my circle of 20s and 30s, most are not married. The ones are married met through online or social circle.
Fit, intelligent and well paid… those are not the qualities I would list to show that a man is dateable and particularly not marriageable. In practice when it comes to love 90% of people don’t care if you’re fit as long as you’re not physically repulsive to them sexually. Yeah if they’re swiping that’s going to be a plus but once you know someone their body is just not that big of a deal, chemistry is way more important. Intelligence is generally a top requirement only for a subset of those who are intelligent. People like to feel reasonably understood by their partners. Well paid… again, it’s a plus but it’s rarely top three. How about fun, treats you well (respect and consideration) and is basically competent at life (cleans, cooks, able to pay rent on time) that seems to me much more relevant.
I’d put competent in the intelligent bucket. Anyway, these men are all these things.
It’s interesting that you mention fun, first. I think it’s speaks to the changing nature of what people are looking for in relationships/marriage. Not so much about economics and reproduction.
Fostering genuine connections based on mutual respect and understanding, rather than on numerical rankings and checklists, could be a step in the right direction. It's just not the culture atm, in any way.
Hardly qualified to offer much in this domain!...but it stands to reason that connecting over shared interests encourages more meaningful interactions and provides opportunities to get to know people beyond surface-level attributes. I'm trying to cultivate a curiosity mindset, accompanied with more active listening. Since taking that approach, rather than coming from 'need', I've been making better decisions in relationships of all types.
How many young men have $5,000 to spend on matchmakers. On top of that they already want you to be prime real estate. I can see why it's difficult for young men.
These days $5k isn't much money haha. If you're serious and want to make it happen then $5k is doable for someone of at least average competency. In the grand scheme of things a relationship should is economically beneficial and worth much more than $5k for many reasons.
If you're really broke, well, probably figure that out first. Plus, there is the marriage bounty option which is what I opted for.
"More than one in four Americans (28%) have savings below $1,000. This is the case for 32% of Gen Zers, followed by Millennials at 31%, Gen X at 27% and Baby Boomers at 20%.
[...]
Our survey found that the majority of Gen Zers (54%) and Millennials (52%) have less than $5,000 saved, compared to 42% of Gen X respondents and 29% of Baby Boomers."
Looks like around half of people are in the $5k plus range.
I also think if you are financially poor then it might actually be easier to find a partner because chances are you're not so picky haha.
I don't think $5k is needed to finded a partner that is a good match. $1-2k is probably enough, well spent. Good photos, premium dating app subscriptions, nice wardrobe, pehaps coaching sessions.
I think largely people don't know how to invest wisely into this. There is no guidance from IRL older people and very little sound guidance buried in the interwebs.
Society needs the guy who says: Look, here's how you do it.
But mostly what I see is doomerism and hope ya figure it out.
This is really interesting. I’m a younger Millenial and I met my husband on Tinder. He was the first (and only) guy from the app I went on a date with. He had previously been on dozens of dates that went nowhere. I agreed to the date because we messaged for a couple of weeks and he never got sleazy or asked for photos and was generally respectful and seemed genuinely interested in getting to know me. Our first date was good but not insane fireworks, I decided to keep seeing him because I felt like we had a lot of shared values and common interests. He had a job and owned a house (at 27!). I asked him how he felt about being a father one day on the second date, possibly a bit too forward but I told him I didn’t want to waste my time or his. There was a point a couple of months in where I started to freak out a bit about the level of commitment, and could easily have blown up the relationship. Thankfully my friends parents, who were sort of surrogate parents to me at the time, gave me some excellent advice and I didn’t dump him in a panic.
Even at the time, which was about 6 years ago, I knew I was lucky to meet someone so quickly. I had been single for years, but none of my friends could believe I had found this great guy on my first attempt at online dating. Sounds like it’s gotten even worse, I really feel for young people today. I set up my brother and my cousin with two of my close friends, both are still happily married with children. My husband already jokes that we are gonna have to match make for our girls when they grow up.
Fantastic. I love to hear the success stories.
I think tinder was actually useful for partner finding, some years ago.
I’ve heard a few stories of women joining a dating app and partnering with the first man they went on a date. I think it speaks to the quality of the woman.
By the way I’ve also been Catholic curious this year.
I see an uptick in Catholic curious millennials. I wonder what going to mass or church groups might do
great perspective & inline with what many of me and my friends have experienced. I think my subjective counter to the online dating is that there are tons of communities popping up where alcohol is not involved from running clubs, story telling events, salsa/bachata, pickle ball, yoga, hiking, etc. That's how I met my current partner. But in general the trend is continuing to go in the wrong direction: more men & women are finding dates via online and generally not very happy with the results.
The clubs, sports, church strategy, haven’t panned out for me in New Hampshire, where there are few young people. I’m curious to see what it’s like in Boston. I think something like run club or dancing does a good job vetting for the type of people you would be interested in. And then it’s sort of a warm approach situation. I still think it’s ideal for a third party, maybe a mutual friend, to be involved to facilitate the matchmaking and the early days of the relationship.
And I agree, the cultural default is “try the apps” 😂
Would you want to share what club or community you met your partner and how it progressed?
salsa/bachata. boston is definitely big enough to have some decent latin dance! lots of fun & good way to meet others in a light setting as long as you're committed to improving. the first few months can be frustrating, but the benefits after that are immense. & as an introvert it's nice because I don't have to talk at all. the connection I can get from 1 dance if done well with someone feels like a lot more than a typical date. which is what I think most people are looking for at the end of the day, just human connection.
now in a long term stable relationship, it's a fun way for me and my gf to have a good time with people of the opposite sex without it being weird or involving jealousy.
but other friends have met partners through hiking, climbing gyms, etc. so tons of options imo.
That’s awesome
Interesting. I'm long married but I run a group for American expats here in Stockholm and we were talking about dating here last week. Many complaints! Everyone here is incredibly good looking and very marriage minded. But they are also (so I hear) incredibly boring. They discuss only facts, not opinions and never ideas. Hard one to fix. Not sure this is relevant but I thought I'd chime in.
Wow, interesting. It’s similar to what Yanina commented. People are looking for “fun” from marriage, not just economics and reproduction, which maybe was more important some time ago
Great piece man! From my POV this is the most critical piece of the puzzle that has gone missing: "The ideal IRL social network is so dense that you can’t see through it. What appears to be more common today is a sparse network of lone individuals, isolated couples, gender silos, and few IRL local connections." The visual is great. I think the major "problem" is that friendships/social groups happen across cities now -- which is awesome, I have tons of close friends in other cities / countries -- yet the thing I/we all long for is intimate in-person groups that meet regularly. That's also what interests me so much in communal living arrangements. Great way to meet potential partners and "vet" them through the community/network of people.
I’ve heard about something called sleep pod communities. I saw a pic on X. Maybe that’s somewhat communal. Curious what other examples
Are you are have you lived in a communal living arrangement
Never heard of those. I have never lived in a formal intentional community but have friends who have and it sounds like a much more natural way of life. Curious to check it out different ones abroad during my travels
Dude, hell yeah. Excited to hear the report
Thank you for writing this. I saw somewhere here on Substack the prediction that in the next 3-5 years there will be a mass exodus from the Internet and social media and people will start to prefer IRL connection again. I think it's very naive but I'd love it if it was true. Even more so with dating apps!
Just as you're moving to Boston I too had to move to another state to make it happen in my 20s. I'm 40 and the dating landscape has changed in innumerable ways since I got married at 25. But one thing that hasn't changed since then and maybe is the through line to previous generations is if you want to date and marry, you have to constrain your life choices. Men and women... It takes what it takes. In previous generations, the constraints happened from community, church, etc. Now it feels harder because the constraint on choice has to be self-imposed. And no one likes that at all.
I read somewhere that the explosion of choice in the last fee years has become our cage
Too much optionally sucks. like the restaurant menu with a hundred items in tiny text and you don’t know what’s in them.
I’d prefer a few high quality options and you know what you’re getting.
Loved the raw honest writing here, this was a fun read.
I would counter what you said about cold approach being the path of most resistance. It's actually quick and easy when you think about it. You see someone you find attractive, and then you go talk to them. You're able to find out instantly whether or not they are interested in pursuing a conversation with you, there's no back and forth messaging for weeks on end trying to plan a first date. Since moving to Barcelona I've quite a few romantic partners just by being out on a walk or a bike ride, it feels so much more organic.
Of course, the cold approach model works well in places that have a high density of people with an abundance of public places to hangout which is not the case in much of the United States. I agree with the point Andriy made about different communities popping up everywhere, it's nice to see that's happening in much of the country.
You're the man Chris, wishing you all the best in your search of a life partner!
Thanks Brian
For me cold approach is 5x easier outside America. Feels like there’s a bit of “don’t rape me!” undertone in America. haha
I think cold approach can be alright for dating for intimacy, but dating for marriage? Not so much
I’m still gonna do cold approach tho, preferably warm approach, cuz why not. I’m not married (:
I agree, the back forth messaging for weeks planning a meetup is no bueno.
Good to hear from you let’s catch up soon
I'd have to agree with Chris. Even when it comes to making friends at the coworking space I've been visiting lately - people apparently need some reason to make eye contact and say hi first. Not an issue in Europe or Asia, so far. I really do think it's an atrophy of social skills. Once you say hi though, people are really friendly, but there is that annoying cold hump to get over in America
Nice breakdown Chris - it’s messy out there. Keeper.ai seems cool. Heard about them maybe 6 months ago. Got like 75% threw their insanely long intake form and my chrome crashed. It didn’t save and I gave up… curious to hear part 2.
Wow…thank you for this post! Super candid and bloody REAL about the situation many men are facing in the USA. I cannot wait for part 2👏 I wonder if you have a take on the religion angle. I’m Catholic and can barely get Catholic women to accept a coffee/gelato/walkabout invitation.
It’s funny there was a piece in there about this but I deleted it. I have a bunch of Catholic friends. I told one of them, Abby, I was writing about dating. She said she knows a Catholic girl she could introduce me to who might be a good match, but she implied I’d need to convert to Catholicism.
Despite not being an ordained Catholic, I’m in a pretty solid group of young adult Catholics, 26-31ish who hang out every week. Idk how common that is.
We are 3 couples, 5 single males and 1 single female (she’s not particularly attractive). It’s somewhat of a gender silo. Abby is in a Facebook group of with Catholics in New England and America and plays matchmaker. One it time it actually worked.
Yes, Catholics are obliged to raise their children as Catholics but many non-practicing Catholics ignore this obligation and date/marry whoever they want.
Practicing Catholics focus on marrying other Catholics or requesting that a non-Catholic courtship/dating partner convert to the faith.
Pretty good post that goes over the current and possible future of dating. I think if you date intentionally, you're doing it wrong. There has to be magic in the process. It's a stupid requirement, but it has to be there. All the rationalists want to remove this stupid requirement, and they're all wrong IMO.
There is a way to solve the fertility crisis. But nobody will like it. Love is war, man.
Really interesting article Chris, especially about the 'blip' between WW2 and Y2K
Fun to collaborate with you on this! Incentive-aligned online dating services are fascinating & I hope they hope they get more popular
I think I answered this question in the first half of the article.
Basically
- sparse IRL network
- inflated expectations
- hypergamy
- misaligned incentives of apps
- little to no guidance from the above generation
I don’t actually know what percent of people or young people are married. In my circle of 20s and 30s, most are not married.
(For what it’s worth, I met my husband online in 2011 so that’s how long I’ve been out of the game.) I don’t understand how I can be hearing from both men and women that there’s just no one decent out there to date.
Is it a survey structure problem? If we’re only listening to single people, then wouldn’t they all say “Yeah, I haven’t had any luck”?
Wouldn’t we also need to listen to people in committed dating relationships and the recently married to get more of an accurate view of the current dating-to-marriage pipeline?
Basically
- sparse IRL network
- inflated expectations
- hypergamy
- misaligned incentives of apps
- little to no guidance from the above generation
I don’t actually know what percent of people or young people are married. In my circle of 20s and 30s, most are not married. The ones are married met through online or social circle.
Fit, intelligent and well paid… those are not the qualities I would list to show that a man is dateable and particularly not marriageable. In practice when it comes to love 90% of people don’t care if you’re fit as long as you’re not physically repulsive to them sexually. Yeah if they’re swiping that’s going to be a plus but once you know someone their body is just not that big of a deal, chemistry is way more important. Intelligence is generally a top requirement only for a subset of those who are intelligent. People like to feel reasonably understood by their partners. Well paid… again, it’s a plus but it’s rarely top three. How about fun, treats you well (respect and consideration) and is basically competent at life (cleans, cooks, able to pay rent on time) that seems to me much more relevant.
I’d put competent in the intelligent bucket. Anyway, these men are all these things.
It’s interesting that you mention fun, first. I think it’s speaks to the changing nature of what people are looking for in relationships/marriage. Not so much about economics and reproduction.
Fostering genuine connections based on mutual respect and understanding, rather than on numerical rankings and checklists, could be a step in the right direction. It's just not the culture atm, in any way.
Agree.
what is the actionable step for the former
Hardly qualified to offer much in this domain!...but it stands to reason that connecting over shared interests encourages more meaningful interactions and provides opportunities to get to know people beyond surface-level attributes. I'm trying to cultivate a curiosity mindset, accompanied with more active listening. Since taking that approach, rather than coming from 'need', I've been making better decisions in relationships of all types.
Nice. What can I bring to the table is great mindset
How many young men have $5,000 to spend on matchmakers. On top of that they already want you to be prime real estate. I can see why it's difficult for young men.
These days $5k isn't much money haha. If you're serious and want to make it happen then $5k is doable for someone of at least average competency. In the grand scheme of things a relationship should is economically beneficial and worth much more than $5k for many reasons.
If you're really broke, well, probably figure that out first. Plus, there is the marriage bounty option which is what I opted for.
Part 2 coming soon
https://shorturl.at/hpWPP
"More than one in four Americans (28%) have savings below $1,000. This is the case for 32% of Gen Zers, followed by Millennials at 31%, Gen X at 27% and Baby Boomers at 20%.
[...]
Our survey found that the majority of Gen Zers (54%) and Millennials (52%) have less than $5,000 saved, compared to 42% of Gen X respondents and 29% of Baby Boomers."
Sad state of affairs. Average isn't good enough.
wtf lol
I know right.
Looks like around half of people are in the $5k plus range.
I also think if you are financially poor then it might actually be easier to find a partner because chances are you're not so picky haha.
I don't think $5k is needed to finded a partner that is a good match. $1-2k is probably enough, well spent. Good photos, premium dating app subscriptions, nice wardrobe, pehaps coaching sessions.
I think largely people don't know how to invest wisely into this. There is no guidance from IRL older people and very little sound guidance buried in the interwebs.
Society needs the guy who says: Look, here's how you do it.
But mostly what I see is doomerism and hope ya figure it out.