I looked him up. I like his ideas. Especially “social defeat” as a catalyst for divergent thinking. A secure network of adult attachments is a great protection against madness
I tried to tackle the same topics. In my view, what you're describing is another example of the cart pulling the horse, the "in Russia..." joke, and goodharting. I have posts of my own trying to get into these things
You may want to check out “the Depths: the Evolutionary Origins of Depression” by Jonathan Rottenberg. Might help add to your already integrative big picture of pathology in modern society.
Thanks Matt, I’ll check that out. I have felt like depressions have some evolutionary utility, like rest, recovery and system reboot. Sort of the opposite of anxiety. Evidentially it’s possible to get stuck in them or ping pong between depression/anxiety pathologically. Thinking about it now, perhaps on occasion a “mental illness” is a natural life process that get pathologized, and perhaps ironically the pharma treatment of the nonproblem causes problems. For example, after traveling, people can enter a depression, they could resist the process, get stuck there, get more sad, try drugs, then they “have depression” and it becomes an identity, a victim card and self fulfilling prophecy.
For sure man, i think it’s another aspect of what you’re saying with monetizing the labels.
The book talks about the premise of the “defect model”, in that depression is the product of some defect - chemical, upbringing, your thoughts, etc. But if you take the view that depression is a product of physiological mood, mood being an aggregate of the multi-variant external and internal factors that are favorable or not towards an individuals life goals (reproduction, food, thriving, etc.) then depression is a feedback system about consistent, long term experiences not favorable to your thriving.
Having a bunch of quacks give you pills that don’t work & come with numerous side effects, or like you said being pathologies and institutionalized, would be likely to exacerbate depression as opposed to alleviate it.
There’s a really nice part in the book that talks about the person experiencing depression both has to deal with 1. The symptoms & 2. Societies reactions to the depression.
It seems pretty natural, evolutionarily speaking to go through various moods. But we’re taught we’re always supposed to be happy & productive, no matter what. If we’re not something is wrong with us.
Yeah there’s quite a bit of learned wrongness. And getting depressed about “having depression” could be a vicious cycle. It doesn’t help the retarded person to call him retarded. Frankly, I’d like more clinical experience helping people move out of a depression, not with daily drugging, obviously. I’m not a doctor, thank god.
I love the bird quote. As an MD I agree with so much of this especially the limitations of labeling. Personally I experienced mental health issues that are not listed in the DSM so does that mean it is not real? Our conditioning, training and climate affect our ability to be compassionate and critically think. We resort to kneejerk prescribing without admitting to the adverse consequences of our behavior. We are sanctioned drug dealers. I am hopeful that the old ways are failing because they harm humanity. Maybe new ways of thinking and healing will emerge.
See online Social Worker Ron Unger about how to treat mental disorders without drugs.
I looked him up. I like his ideas. Especially “social defeat” as a catalyst for divergent thinking. A secure network of adult attachments is a great protection against madness
I tried to tackle the same topics. In my view, what you're describing is another example of the cart pulling the horse, the "in Russia..." joke, and goodharting. I have posts of my own trying to get into these things
Great. Looking forward to our convo
Thanks for working on these questions. Many of them have sat on a side burner in my mind for awhile. Looking forward to the next one.
Thanks Dave. More to come
Great article man.
You may want to check out “the Depths: the Evolutionary Origins of Depression” by Jonathan Rottenberg. Might help add to your already integrative big picture of pathology in modern society.
Thanks Matt, I’ll check that out. I have felt like depressions have some evolutionary utility, like rest, recovery and system reboot. Sort of the opposite of anxiety. Evidentially it’s possible to get stuck in them or ping pong between depression/anxiety pathologically. Thinking about it now, perhaps on occasion a “mental illness” is a natural life process that get pathologized, and perhaps ironically the pharma treatment of the nonproblem causes problems. For example, after traveling, people can enter a depression, they could resist the process, get stuck there, get more sad, try drugs, then they “have depression” and it becomes an identity, a victim card and self fulfilling prophecy.
For sure man, i think it’s another aspect of what you’re saying with monetizing the labels.
The book talks about the premise of the “defect model”, in that depression is the product of some defect - chemical, upbringing, your thoughts, etc. But if you take the view that depression is a product of physiological mood, mood being an aggregate of the multi-variant external and internal factors that are favorable or not towards an individuals life goals (reproduction, food, thriving, etc.) then depression is a feedback system about consistent, long term experiences not favorable to your thriving.
Having a bunch of quacks give you pills that don’t work & come with numerous side effects, or like you said being pathologies and institutionalized, would be likely to exacerbate depression as opposed to alleviate it.
There’s a really nice part in the book that talks about the person experiencing depression both has to deal with 1. The symptoms & 2. Societies reactions to the depression.
It seems pretty natural, evolutionarily speaking to go through various moods. But we’re taught we’re always supposed to be happy & productive, no matter what. If we’re not something is wrong with us.
Yeah there’s quite a bit of learned wrongness. And getting depressed about “having depression” could be a vicious cycle. It doesn’t help the retarded person to call him retarded. Frankly, I’d like more clinical experience helping people move out of a depression, not with daily drugging, obviously. I’m not a doctor, thank god.
Dr piece dropping in couple days
Yeah same on the doctor bit. But cool man, looking forward to the next piece. Cheers 🤙🏼
I love the bird quote. As an MD I agree with so much of this especially the limitations of labeling. Personally I experienced mental health issues that are not listed in the DSM so does that mean it is not real? Our conditioning, training and climate affect our ability to be compassionate and critically think. We resort to kneejerk prescribing without admitting to the adverse consequences of our behavior. We are sanctioned drug dealers. I am hopeful that the old ways are failing because they harm humanity. Maybe new ways of thinking and healing will emerge.